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okay three
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri the
French police heroically I must say
ended the career of the mass murderer
and Isis Mastermind Abdul Hamid abaud
the problem is there are a lot more
where he came from and nobody in our
political class seems to know how to
stop the multiplying recruitment of
those who are all too ready to sacrifice
their own lives for as many others as
they can take with them on the contrary
our leaders repeatedly prove Einstein's
Maxim that doing the same thing over and
over again and expecting a different
result is the very definition of Madness
having spent the last 4 and a half years
making Isis and Al-Qaeda stronger in the
Levant they ask us to believe that they
are now the men to sort out the mess
they've been creating not for the last
15 days but for decades
and moreover to persist in The Madness
of fighting Isis and the Syrian regime
simultaneously and with no un
authorization and in confrontation
politically at least with Syria's allies
joining us to discuss the critical
juncture at which we now stand is
political analyst writer and broadcaster
John White John neither you nor I are
liberals neither are we pacifists surely
the question here is not that something
must be done but what must be done not
if but how absolutely um what was a
regional conflict is now undeniably a
global one in short order we've had the
Downing of the Russian airliner over the
Sinai followed by Carnage in beut
Carnage in Nigeria and Carnage most
recently on the streets of Paris so this
undeniably demands an overwhelming
response the question is as you say
on what basis that response Comes The
Narrative that there is any equivalence
between President Bashar al-assad Assad
and the people that he is fighting in
Syria is now no longer tenable if it
ever was tenable neither is a narrative
that Putin should be regarded as an
enemy or as somebody who's hostile to
our interests we need to form a united
front and these unilateralist and
unfortunately we have a government that
is still plagued with unilateralism on
this issue unless they come to that
understanding they will deepen the
crisis rather than alleviate it because
it will lock us into a collision course
with Russia Iran and the Syrian
governments the vast majority of people
fighting on the ground are Muslims the
Muslims of the Syrian Arab Army
Hezbollah Iranian revolutionary guards
and volunteers and the kurs and we must
align our efforts with them now we
should have done it long before now but
now it has to be done in fact for the
last 4 and a half years we've been doing
the opposite haven't we we've been
backing them giving them money directly
or IND directly giving them weapons
giving them political and uh propaganda
support calling them Freedom Fighters
revolutionaries even while they were
eating people's hearts and cutting off
heads by the hundreds if not thousands
and what's needed now is a sharp uturn
by Western countries not into pacifism
yeah neither of us would for a moment
contemplate that we should just be a
kind of punch bag waiting for the next
uh a suicide unit to turn up but make
alliances with the people that are
already fighting them I've never
understood why that's so difficult what
what is it about Bashar alassad that
means we can't make an alliance with him
and his friends to crush these people
well fortunately what we're seeing
George is the fact that statecraft today
is a is dying on its feet as a craft um
when David Cameron talks about striking
the head of the snake as he did recently
with regards air strikes in raaka he was
wrong the head of the snake snake to
extend the metaphor is in Saudi Arabia
so why is that Alliance still ongoing
that Alliance must end and must be
reconsidered as a matter of urgency
everybody can see it except him and
British arms dealers who benefit from
this Alliance no one else benefits from
this Alliance this is a medieval
kleptocracy and the poison and extremism
which we are fighting emanates from
there and has done for decades and it's
now reached a point of critical mass so
you're right there must be a realignment
on all fronts regarding our geopolitical
interests and regarding how we deal with
this as a security issue at home with
the guyss to shoot to kill I think we
should go on that there is a distinction
to be drawn with people who are
formulating plans to carry out these
kinds of attacks and people who are in
the process of carrying them out it is
not right to go and shoot and kill
people who are in the process of
formulating plans but if someone is
pring around the Streets of London
wielding an AK-47 and wearing a suicide
belt it is simply not to Red the rights
they must be and deal with appropriately
i' I'd pull the trigger myself I'd be
happy to see every iist terrorist lying
dead in the street again it's not about
if it's about how if you handle this the
wrong way as I said 4 days after 911 in
Parliament when it was recalled if you
handle this the wrong way you make
10,000 new Ben laddin I underestimated
that to be sure but you'll make tens
hundreds of thousands of new uh uh Isis
Fighters and people ready to kill
themselves if they can kill you and as
many of us as they can take with them
yes I mean the first order of business
we have to eradicate the physical
presence of Isis stroke Das in Syria and
Iraq that has to be done on the basis of
a united front the ideology which fuels
this Menace is a different matter that's
going to be a longer term struggle and
that has to be more nuanced that
involves how we deal with the Muslim
Community here
the vast majority of Muslims
overwhelming majority of Muslims hate
this Menace even more than we do as I
said earlier they're the ones who are
doing the fighting and they dying on the
ground against the sectarian mass
murders the only division that matters
in that region is not between Sunni and
Shia Christian Muslim non-muslim atheist
or secularist it is between sectarian
and non sectarian forces and we should
be on the side of non- sectarian forces
and as you see if we go in there
blundering as we've done in the past
then we will just give fuel to the fire
and increased support for sectarian
forces so we have to be very very
careful why can't they Ally with the you
mentioned President Putin earlier the
Russian military intervention in Syria
has been devastatingly successful of
course it doesn't deal with the causes
no we deal with the causes after we've
staunched the symptoms um but in terms
of attacking the
symptoms the Russian armed forces have
been devastatingly successful why can't
Obama and Cameron and Holland say we're
joining up with Russia to end this
Menace uh on that Battlefield we'll
disagree no doubt about what has to
happen next but there will be no next if
we can't staunch the blood flow that is
coming from these people well as we saw
from the G8 the noises coming out are
much more positive than they have been
in the wake of this Carnage The Body
Language alone from the meeting that we
were privileged to see between uh
President Obama and Vladimir Putin and
it was just them and their translators
president shows that engagement has been
much more meaningful than it ever has
that has to continue there's peace talks
being scheduled to start in Vienna with
Syrian opposition groups uh in January
concrete results must arise from those
talks but I think the problem has been
they've been locked into this attitude
of unipolarity that is a hangover from
previous administrations the collapse of
the Soviet Union it was Grey by
triumphalism the end of History nonsense
and the idea that America should rule
the world like ancient Rome when George
W bush emerged from his Monker 3 days
after the attack on 911 he did so as the
enemy the modern incarnation of the
ancient Roman emperor Caesar Augustus
and he wanted to redraw the world in
America's image it was a neocon project
for a New American Century strategy that
can no longer be allowed to intrude on
global Affairs Russia is a viable
partner uh so as China we need a
multi-polar alternative to unipolarity
that has dragged us into this mess this
is the cause of the crisis that we are
facing today so they have to accept that
and I think there is starting to be a
grudging acceptance of that but it
certainly can't come quick enough at
that level because the public itself
although it's obviously a confusing
message first they want to kill get rid
of Assad and now they're you know trying
to make you know clear actually we need
to work together with him the public has
you know can see through that they they
saw from the beginning that look we've
got one greater enemy of course Assad
has done bad things but the bigger enemy
is Isis and and theu sees that AB
absolutely I mean we're talking about uh
a group of sectarians who are intent on
turning Syria and Iraq into a mass grave
for minorities Muslim and non-muslim
alike it's like Paul pot it's return to
the year zero it's not about islamism
it's not anything that's Islamic you're
right the Kim R were not uh Muslims the
Nazis were Muslims it's a reflex against
modernity that arises out of conditions
crisis and war that we cause are talking
about the West if you look at the issue
in Cambodia that was a direct result of
the US extending his bombing campaign to
Cambodia and producing societal claps
out of which this Menace and this
reaction emerged in the form of the K
rge we we're looking at a very distinct
parallel here in the Middle East with
the rise of is when we went into Iraq we
unlocked the gates of hell and another
important aspect of this hasn't been
mentioned yet following on from that is
we need to ensure Justice in the case of
Tony Blair is served because he was the
man he played a key role in unlocking
those gates of hell and he has to play a
heavy heavy price because it was from
those Gates of Hell from that hell that
this monster has emerged I wish we could
talk all day but just time for one last
uh question you this is a snake with
more than one head actually you're right
that Riyad is a kind of ideological and
financial Fountain Head but none of this
could have happened without the
collaboration with Isis and Al-Qaeda of
the Turkish State now turkey is a member
of NATO yeah the same Alliance as us
Saudi Arabia is always we're always told
is our best friend in the Arab world how
is it possible that NATO and uh the
friends of Saudi Arabia cannot tell them
that it cannot be business as usual you
have to stop what you're doing and start
doing the opposite yeah I mean on these
countries uh in the case of Saudi Arabia
at least a client State I mean who's
wagging the dog the dog or the tail well
I think we have to understand the US is
not the same animal in terms of its
projection of Imperial power as it was
in 2003 it's been severely weakened
after a decade of failed Wars and
occupations in Afghan Afghanistan and
Iraq and beside the fact that the US
took a backi under Obama when it came to
regime change in Libya I think the
problem has been is that the us doesn't
have the resources anymore and its
Regional allies are now following their
own Regional agenda which are inimicable
to the US agenda of stability of
returning stability to a region that has
now been destabilized and so we know for
a fact that Riad and erdogan were fuming
at the um at the the decision not to
proceed with armed strikes against Assad
and his forces uh in 2013 and I think
they followed their own policy in the
wake of that and it's just undermined
all effort to get a handle on this
growing crisis but this now is being
laid bare and you're right there is a
very very murky relationship between the
erdogan government and this is group
because we know they would not have been
able to function without the ability to
pass men and material back and forward
across the Turkish border and one of the
most Grievous injustices of this whole
episode and this whole conflict has been
the way that the Turks turned on the
Kurds the heroic Defenders of cabani
when their tanks sat and watched this
going on and they managed to beat off
these uh these Isis hordes and they've
now they've now started air strikes
against the very people who only
registered the only defeat hither to
against is it doesn't get any more worse
than that foul not Mar foul John White
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik
coming up next a British Muslim
perspective on what all of this means
for his Co religionist is broadcaster
Roshan Sal stay
tuned
welcome back to Sputnik something
approaching a state of Siege now exists
for Europe's millions of Muslim citizens
even before the events in Paris YouTube
clips proliferated of usually
defenseless Muslim women and pensioners
being assaulted on public transport or
plane in the street just before Le a
video emerged of an 81-year-old man
pushing a Muslim woman into the path of
an oncoming London tube train a clue you
might think both to the rise of
anti-muslim hatred in Britain and a
deepening of the pool of alienation in
which the Isis and Al-Qaeda terrorists
swim broadcaster Roshan Muhammad s is
one of the most acute observers of the
Muslim Community in Britain and in
Europe and he joins us now Roshan thanks
for coming on board the Sputnik you've
got your finger on the pulse how worried
are the Muslims in Britain and Europe
today and are they right to be uh yes
they are right to be I mean I think
George islamophobia is that
unprecedented levels all across Europe
uh I used to live in France I did a
documentary recently on French Muslims
and it's actually a lot worse in France
than it is in Britain I mean France is a
very aggressive SEC it's it's uh Lite
its secularism is a very aggressive
secularism uh a secularism which
considers a veil to be a threat to the
state if it's sworn in a school uh
islamophobia and racism almost
mainstream not only in French government
perhaps also in French society which is
even more worrying uh in Britain I think
we have our problems here but it's a
it's a much more kind of a liberal type
of secularism that British Muslims have
to uh you know adere to this aggressive
secularism of the French state will not
have been uh dampened by the events of
course and the fact that the killers
appear largely to have come from Belgium
uh if not further a field will not uh
will not protect the French Muslims from
what comes next what do you think's
coming next well I mean if you look for
the last year after Char ABDO attacks in
January what the french state did was
they militarized Society if you go to
France now there are literally thousands
of soldiers on the streets usually prot
protecting the Eiffel Tower and places
like that but the synagogues especially
they're not protecting mosques and if
you you actually look at the number of
attacks which have taken place since the
shal ABDO incident it's usually against
Muslims islamophobia is really uh
islamophobic attacks have gone through
the roof uh France has enacted many
right-wing policies you can't even
demonstrate against Israel now inance
it's a crime to campaign to boycot is
good you can demonstrate against any
other country in the world except Israel
and France you cannot demonstrate
against police brutality in France so
they've enacted these extremely
Draconian right-wing laws but they
haven't stopped the terrorist attacks no
they've traded uh Liberty for security
but they gave up the liberty and didn't
get the security are they going to dig
this hole even deeper I think they
haven't got a policy I mean the thing is
that uh I mean they're bombing Syria now
they're bombing Rua you know bombing
dases
supposedly uh but I think they just want
to be seen to be doing something uh you
know France just doesn't have a policy
whatsoever I mean I think it's
personally quite comp I I see these
attacks uh in a nutshell as Imperial
blowback you know I mean France has a
history in Algeria very sorted history
uh most more more recently it bombed
Libya and you know we see the Anarchy
now in Libya Mali but also Syria it
encouraged the destabilization of the
Syrian State now all these extremists I
call them takfiri forces that are
rampant now in the Middle East
especially but also in Europe are a
product of the destabilization of states
such as Iraq and Syria
once you get rid of essential Authority
that's what happened un you unleash
these forces of extremism can I just
touch upon what you call dases because
our previous guest also start to
referring to Isis as dases now as an
anthropologist uh I believe that
language is culture and therefore the
media keep on repeating Isis Islamic
State it it it echoes in society and
therefore people perhaps like you choose
to use the Das is that conscious with
you well I I want to call them whatever
they don't want to be called and they
don't want to be called Isis they don't
want to be called isil they don't want
to be called dis really they just want
to be called DOA islamia Islamic State
because that's what they consider
themselves to be but often obviously uh
you know they are rejected by 99% of
Muslims all over the world so I I think
it's important to delegitimize them in
every sense and of course language is an
important aspect of that now Belgium has
moved center stage in these events uh
you lived in France we both know how
permeable the French Belgian uh border
is what's the state of play for Muslims
in Belgium now or more importantly
what's it going to be tomorrow well I
think all across Europe when these
terrorist attacks occur you see a uh a
clamp down on ordinary Muslims uh not
just terrorists or people that um you
know may be prone to terrorism uh you
see
the the net cast so wide that the
innocent are put in the same basket as
the guilty the radicals in the same
basket as the moderate so what I expect
to see is not only a clamp down on
terrorists and and people where there is
intelligence that they they are on the
verge of committing a violent act but
also on Peaceful dissidents so-called
non-violent extremists uh ultimately and
and social conservatives as well whose
views may not be palatable towards but
you know to to West and liberals But
ultimately these are not people that are
going to commit violence or Insight
violence thus deepening this pool of
alienation that I talked about we we had
this experience in the north of Ireland
for decades uh if you criminalize
marginalize an entire Society on the
grounds of ethnicity or
religion uh lock them up interment which
we did in the early
1970s what you you're actually
generating are new recruits and new
forces for extremism the same must be
true uh in this islamophobic atmosphere
I think French Muslims British Muslims
we feel as though the state we we feel
as though the the state does not
represent represent us the media doesn't
represent that's why I started my own
website to K C for British Muslims
because the mainstream media uh doesn't
get our views across and that's a very
dangerous situation when you you know 5
million Muslims in France for example
feel as though this is a white country
this is not a country for brown people
it's not a country for people who have
religious values um on every single
socioeconomic indicator French Muslims
are right there at the bottom they feel
they have no future so when somebody
offers them the adventure of a lifetime
in Syria or Iraq and often you have this
kind of wahabi Islam creeping in as well
funded by Saudi Arabia and Q especially
uh you know when you add that into the
the mix it's a very dangerous cocktail
indeed and when you have vast suedes of
European populations hating their own
country because they feel their country
you know does nothing for them that can
only go down very dangerous Avenues now
in Britain those stats are different
there's just less than 2 million Muslims
in Britain not 5 million like France
many Muslims are not at the bottom of
the socioeconomic uh pile here in
Britain yet the feeling of alienation
irrespective almost of the economic
position is the same because it's a
culture or feeling that you are being
blamed no one who looks at a picture of
the Klux Clan yeah imagines that these
people are representative of Christians
why then do so many people when they
look at a picture of Isis imagine that
these people are representative of
Muslims well we get we get asked to
condemn everything any atrocity which
happens anywhere in the world all
Muslims seem to have to apologize for it
like I have anything to do with what
what happened in Paris or what happens
in in Syria or Iraq uh and it's this
notion of collective responsibility
which uh you know even someone as
eminent as Peter oborn yesterday I heard
him say Peter obor is somebody who's
sympathetic towards the Muslim Community
and writes stuff about islamophobia
which is very Progressive but even he he
I heard him say yesterday that
ultimately we have a terrorist threat in
this country and it's coming from the
Muslim Community or something to that
effect Maybe I'm paraphrasing it in an
unfair way but but ultimately you know
it's not as if we're harboring these
people it's not as we're hiding them
it's not as if we're not telling the
authorities about violent incidents that
are going to take place you know these
people are the the child of f of French
imperialism Western imperialism and
they've got nothing to do with my
religion they they are an insult to My
Religion you know they drag my great
religion to the mud every single day
radicalization has several factors one
and I would say the major one is foreign
policy if the the the the the biggest
thing you could do to stop the bombs
going off in London and Paris is to not
bomb Syria and Iraq or or you know
generally just a go a much more ethical
foreign policy which is something that
all the people in this most people in
this country believe in not just Muslims
secondly uh you have to address the
problems of media islamophobia
disenfranchisement
racism I would say perhaps 10% of the
problem perhaps the Muslim Community can
do a little bit more I think we have
been uh asleep a little bit in terms of
the encroachment of salafi wahhabi Islam
uh coming to dominate British Islam now
I'm not saying that that is a you know a
slippery slope towards terrorism I don't
think there's the the the connection is
that direct but I think it is an
intolerant brand of Islam I don't want
to see it dominate British Islam I want
to see the sufis the the Shia the bis
the dandis and the salais um you know
they're all part of the fabric of
British Islam and I don't want to see
any of them dominate over the other I I
want to see a diverse Islam that's the
way I like it well said thanks very much
Roshan Muhammad
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Sali and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling G Tre so in
the aftermath of the terrorist attacks
in Paris Where Do We Stand Britain as a
country Elizabeth says I'll be in favor
of action if it did some good but I've
got serious doubt about this will I fear
that we could experience reprisals like
77 and then she continues saying Western
intervention in the Middle East has
always been a disaster from dividing
Ottoman Empire to the more recent Iraq
Wars 100 Years of failure and takes then
says like 911 the NATO are using this
atrocity in Paris for their own devious
and dishonest ends well that's certainly
true uh but we have to set aside past
differences now and come together
against the main enemy of all of us of
all Humanity which is Isis and Al-Qaeda
we'll have to return to other issues
we're dealing with a symptom and not a
cause that's for sure exct but if you
don't staunch the flow of blood from the
symptoms you're not going to be alive to
deal with the cause and that's all that
we got time for this week which alas
means that's the end of the show you can
stay in touch with us on Twitter at rtor
Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik on Russia
today it's goodbye from me gri and from
me George Galloway it's been
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